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Feminism, Religion and Morals

March 12, 2008
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How do you end a discussion with a feminist Christian missionary that encourages ministering to Mosques without informing the Muslim congregation?

Apparently, all you have to do is think about inviting them out to minister at the mosque.

And now, comments are closed on that thread but they’ll always be open here.

Background: saw this, wrote this and was blamed for this

9 Comments leave one →
  1. March 12, 2008 10:51 pm

    Samaha, you now misrepresenting me. I have clearly stated several times that I HAVE NEVER VISITED A MOSQUE WIHOUT FIRST INFORMING THE LEADERSHIP WHO I AM, WHAT I BELIEVE ETC…and I ALWAYS have visited knowing that I am a guest. I have only gone to observe, that’s it! Also, I am not a missionary. Get your facts straight. Please get over this. I think you have taken it WAY TOO FAR! Guess what, I am NOT the only Christian who visits mosques!

    I have black listed you at my blog as you have been rude and unreasonable.

    Sincerely,

    A

  2. March 12, 2008 11:50 pm

    Angela,

    Once again – and this question has never been answered by you – are you or are you not suggesting Christians go minister at mosques to prepare the soil for spreading the message of Christ while telling Muslims that they are curious about Islam?

    I don’t think you’ve blacklisted me for being rude and unreasonable. I really think you didn’t like what I had to say and you don’t want anyone else reading it. Go ahead censor all you want – here is the contents of your post and all our comments as I have this sudden feeling they may disappear. As of yet, I haven’t screened them for editing but I probably should.

    « Freaky FridaySick and Tired of Being Sick and Tired! »Blinded By the god of this Age
    Whenever I post something on Islam I inevitably get a comment or two from Muslims who are offended at my suggestion that they need Jesus Christ in order to find true life, freedom, peace and security. A few posts ago I reposted something I wrote about my own burden for Muslim women. In short order I received two comments (one was actually a ping back) from Muslim women who were disgusted and baffled by the Gospel message and the suggestion that belief in Jesus Christ is the only way to find salvation. When I read their comments only one thing comes to my mind and it is the same thing that really keeps so many from surrendering to Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:4 sums it up perfectly:

    “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

    It is understandable that these women would not understand the message of the Gospel. They have been blinded by the god that they worship. From my experience in Muslim ministry and based on Biblical principles the god of Islam is not the same as the God, YAWEH. Allah is an idol, a false god. But that’s a whole other post. The only way that anyone can come to Christ is by the Holy Spirit’s work in their heart. Again, 2 Corinthians sums this up:

    2 Cor. 3:16 “But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.”

    In essence, the blind can now see! So, don’t be alarmed when people reject Jesus and his message. Sometimes I am discouraged by this, but then I remember what Jesus said in Matthew 5:11-12:

    “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

    Now, I am in no way suggesting that I am suffering persecution on my blog, but just wanted to remind us all that standing for Christ will rub some people the wrong way! Thanks for reading.

    Explore posts in the same categories: Islam, Salvation, Women, Worldview
    This entry was posted on March 9, 2008 at 3:04 am and is filed under Islam, Salvation, Women, Worldview. You can subscribe via RSS 2.0 feed to this post’s comments. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

    14 Comments on “Blinded By the god of this Age”
    properlyscared Says:

    March 9, 2008 at 4:01 am
    Bless you for your witness! There are wonderful gains in Africa–Christianity is the choice of Muslims fleeing Islam.

    samaha Says:

    March 11, 2008 at 6:36 pm
    Quite honestly, I wasn’t disgusted and baffled by what you claim to be the gospel’s message. I was utterly baffled by your perception of one religion’s oppression of women accompanied by your failure to understand that your own religion is patriarchal. And I’ll dwell into this subject after I get to what I was disgusted by.

    What really floored me was what you are willing to do in order to deliver Christ the Savior. You are willing to at the very least practice deception but quite honestly, in my eyes I consider it lying and I believe most people would. When you tell people to go to the Mosque and tell them you are interested in Islam and talk about how you have been to the mosque – that my dear is outright lying in order to achieve your purpose .. because let’s be honest – you are not there out of an interest of Islam, you are there as a missionary. That right there is what disgusts me. As a Muslim, as a believer in Adam, Moses, Noah, Jesus and Muhammed I am astounded that someone would resort to this type of behavior in the name of one of the God’s prophets and I feel shame for you.

    Now, let’s move onto patriarchy in the Bible –

    According to the bible – can a wife or daughter make a vow to God or a contract with another human without the approval (silence considered approval) of her father or husband? The answer is no.

    According to the Bible – if a jealous man SUSPECTS his wife has cheated on him – what can be done to the woman? Look it up – it’s quite a gruesome act that from what I’ve read is sure to be the death of a woman.

    Now – what about women voting? What rights do women have according to the Bible in terms of making decisions?

    Let me refer you to this passage from Female Suffrage. A Letter to the Christian Women of America:

    “Believing then in the greater physical powers of man, and in his superiority, to a limited extent, in intellect also, as two sufficient reasons for the natural subordination of woman as a sex, we have yet a third reason for this subordination. Christianity can be proved to be the safest and highest ally of man’s nature, physical, moral, and intellectual, that the world has yet known. It protects his physical nature at every point by plain, stringent rules of general temperance and moderation. To his moral nature it gives the pervading strength of healthful purity. To his intellectual nature, while on one hand it enjoins full development and vigorous action, holding out to the spirit the highest conceivable aspirations, on the other it teaches the invaluable lessons of a wise humility. This grand and holy religion, whose whole action is healthful, whose restraints are all blessings–this gracious religion, whose chief precepts are the love of God and the love of man–this same Christianity confirms the subordinate position of woman, by allotting to man the headship in plain language and by positive precept. No system of philosophy has ever yet worked out in behalf of woman the practical results for good which Christianity has conferred on her. Christianity has raised woman from slavery and made her the thoughtful companion of man; finds her the mere toy, or the victim of his passions, and it places her by his side, his truest friend, his most faithful counselor, his helpmeet in every worthy and honorable task. It protects her far more effectually than any other system. It cultivates, strengthens, elevates, purifies all her highest endowments, and holds out to her aspirations the most sublime for that future state of existence, where precious rewards are promised to every faithful discharge of duty, even the most humble. But, while conferring on her these priceless blessings, it also enjoins the submission of the wife to the husband, and allots a subordinate position to the whole sex while here on earth. No woman calling herself a Christian, acknowledging her duties as such, can, therefore, consistently deny the obligation of a limited subordination laid upon her by her Lord and His Church.” http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/susan/suffrage.html

    Care to share your feminist thoughts on that?

    Angela Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 4:18 am
    You raised a lot of points here I would like to address the most obvious ones…first let me clarify that when I have gone to Mosques, I told them that I was a Christian and I was TRULY curious about Islam. Sorry if I was unclear about that. Just so you know, while I was there, I was approached by Muslims who tried to convert me, while I did not attempt to convert anyone. My goal was to sincerely befriend people. I have never decieved anyone in order to share Jesus Christ with them. Please get all the facts before you make assumptions and attack me on my blog.

    Also, it is a deep misconception that Christianity is a hierarchial faith. Unfortunately most Christians do not even realize this. Let me try to put this simply, although it is a very complicated concept. First in my original post I pointed out that Christ himself respected women and loved them as equals. In a time when the culture made women to be less than an animal, Jesus accepted women and valued them. If you read the New Testament you will understand this. The treatment of women in the OT was also cultural. The Law that God gave the Israelites was given to them as a standard of purity. If the punishments seem harsh, then it was only because the sin demanded such punishment. After Jesus came he wiped away the Law and now there is grace which covers our sin if we confess our sins to Him.

    Next, when one becomes a Christian, they are a new Creation,and are brought into a relationship with Jesus Christ. Because Christ has a relationship with God the Father, we are in essence part of that relationship. How amazing! We are not subordinate to men in Christianity. Because Christ died for us, he views us as clean, new and pure. We (both men and women) are seen as equal, yes we have differences, but those differences compliment each other as we relate in Christ. We are all one in Christ. Equals, if you will.

    Galatians 3:26-29 says…”You are all Sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ, for all who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    Here’s a post on how women and men relate in the Trinity!

    http://christthetruth.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/trinity-universalism-and-womens-ministry/

    Blessings,

    Angela

    angela Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 4:40 am
    ps yes you were offended by the Gospel. Read your own post.

    https://samaha.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/what-have-we-done-lately/

    Also, I am NOT interested in merely “expanding my own” religion (which exactly what Muhammad did by the sword). I am interested in seeing individuals come to Christ. If truly believe in Islam, aren’t you interested in seeing others become Muslim?????? We live in a country where there is freedom of religion. If I want to share my faith, I am free to do that. When visiting Mosques, I attended as a guest, and NEVER shared my faith in that venue. I was there only to observe and learn more about Islam. I’m sorry if that is offensive to you. Do not Muslims seek to convert people to Islam? I am not offended by that and it is not unethical. I not sure what ethics you are studying here. Anyway, as follower of Jesus Christ, I am COMPELLED to share his love, forgivness, peace and salvation with others. I know you cannot understand that now, but someday I pray you will. And someday you will bow the knee to HIM, whether you want to or not.

    This is the last time I will comment on this post.

    thanks!

    angela

    Bobby Grow Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 9:06 am
    Shama,

    The Mosaic Covenant, or the Old Covenant, the one you refer to in your comment (i.e. Numbers, ) had to do with Yahweh’s Covenant with the nation of Israel . . . and actually provided framework for His theocratic reign. And actually, as Angela has pointed out, Law-codes like this were given because men/women were hard hearted sinners . . . and they needed the Law to understand what Yahweh’s holy standards were. Anyway, the point of the Old Covenant was to point to Christ (see Galatians 3 in the New Testament) . . . since all this system actually did was condemn people since nobody could actually keep these Laws.

    As far as patriarchy in the Bible, the OT indeed DESCRIBES patriarchy, since this was a cultural reality, but it never CONDONES it. Remember the Old Covenant, the one you refer to, was given because people were hard hearted (see Jesus on this in Matthew 19), not because Yahweh was endorsing patriarchicalism. How do I know this, well all you have to do is read about Jesus and women in the New Testament (i.e. the Ingil) . . . and you will quickly realize that the God of both the Old Testament and New Testament never endorsed andocentrism/patriarchical notions. In fact woman were the first to see Jesus risen from the dead . . . now, in the first century, which was indeed patriarchal, if the Gospel writers were trying to deceive people by saying that Jesus had risen from the dead, they never would’ve lifted up women as the primary/first witnesses of the resurrection. So you see, Shama, Jesus’ ethic had already made an impact on his Apostles, since they saw women in a new light . . . a Christ centered light . . . a trinitarian light. The passage Angela quotes from Galatians on “oneness” between men/women in Christ is spot on.

    The suffrage letter, really isn’t worth responding to. It doesn’t represent what Christians believe in this regard. In fact this letter was written by a budding feminist of modernism.

    I really think you should reconsider who Christ is . . . he is not the Ebionite Jesus, i.e. just a prophet/man, no He is Deus Incarnandus, the Logos Ensarkos, God in the flesh–100% God/100% Man (see John 1:1, 14). Your view of Jesus was condemned as a Christological heresy centuries ago, in fact by the time Mohammed’s uncle influenced him with this view of Jesus, Mohammed’s uncle believed in the Ebionite heresy, centuries had already passed, even at that point, from the time that this view of Jesus was considered heresy/false. The interesting connection, is that Muslim’s view of Jesus is exactly the view shared by Ebionite “Christians” . . . don’t you think that is a little more than coincidence, Shama?

    I hope you come to the truth, Shama, and quit “submitting” (i.e. “Islaming”) to a false deity . . . the monadic God of Aristotelianism (have you ever heard of Averroes😉. I’ll pray for your salvation.

    glenscriv Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 5:15 pm
    Hello all,

    Two thoughts occur to me on this

    1) an interesting comparison on this issue might be that of multiple wives. As Bobby has said, such OT practices as this are recorded in Scripture descriptively rather than prescriptively. And polygamy was *always* a description of strife. NT practice is monogamy. I would have thought the Islamic teaching on this is a retrograde step from a woman’s perspective?

    2) The Muslim doctrine of God (”He does not beget nor is He begotten” Sura 112) allows for no differentiation among equals. The Christian doctrine of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit in loving communion) is itself a community of different Persons with different roles who are nonetheless upheld in unbreakable bonds of eternal fellowship. In Islam there is Allah and there is everything else which exists in infinite qualititative distinction from him. The ‘other’ is *very* much the lesser. In Jesus Christ we have One who was eternally at the Father’s side (John 1:18). He has eternally been ‘Other’ and yet eternally one with His Father and the Spirit. Because of the Christian doctrine of God, other-ness / distinction / difference does not imply inferiority. Because of the Muslim doctrine of God, it is very difficult in Islam to treat otherness / distinction /difference with equal regard. This is true of all religions and philosophies with monadic foundations.

    This is the problem of the one and the many. It is as old as philosophy itself. Only the trinity has the solution.

    When Christianity has been guilty of unequal regard for women it has been unfaithful to itself. On the other hand I would argue that when Islam has treated women with lesser regard it is being faithful to its monadic worldview / unitarian god.

    Glen

    Angela Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 5:23 pm
    Thanks bobby and glen, you articulated these issues MUCH better than I!

    thanks again,

    angela

    samaha Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 6:10 pm
    Angela,

    Unfortunately for you, the assumption didn’t come without reading your about page, without reading your first paragraph of the post I decided to highlight, without considering the advice you were giving to your readers:

    “Also, try visiting your local Mosque…they will welcome you if you come as someone who is interested in Islam! Be careful to honor their wishes regarding women to be covered and modest and remember that women worship separately in the Mosque, often they will have a separate entrance for women!) My husband and I have had many interesting experiences and adventures at the local mosques in our area! Little did we know that we had visited one of the most militant mosques in the US! (but that requires another post!) My point is to try to interact with Muslims in your area and get the Good News out to them! Ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment for when to share the Gospel with them, to know when the soil has been properly prepared for the seed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Also, before embarking on your own personal ministry to Muslims try reading a few books on Muslim ministry. This will give a deeper understand of the religion and mentality of the Muslim! They are a complicated and fascinating people!”

    So, I realize that this may be a tough question for you to answer because it may reflect that at a time you doubted or questioned your own faith or were open to other faiths but were you truelly there because you were curious about Islam or were you there because you just wanted to spread your message ( I mean let’s face it, you could have just picked up some books if you were curious about Islam and obviously you have some knowledge and interactions with Muslims from your mission to France)? Were you comming clean with your second comment to me or did you realize that you may be giving other Christians the wrong idea about why you were there? You owe me no explanations because, really even if you were there out of the best of intentions because you love Muslim women (and I do consider this), because you are a social person and you would like to have Muslim women as your friends there is still the issue that you are asking other Christian missionaries to go to a Mosque. So, are you asking them to be curious about Islam when they go to the Mosque and actually learn something about Islam or are you referring them to go to the Mosque to spread the message? Even if you yourself were not being deceptive you are clearly asking other to do this. Let me remind you once again:

    “My point is to try to interact with Muslims in your area and get the Good News out to them! Ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment for when to share the Gospel with them, to know when the soil has been properly prepared for the seed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Also, before embarking on your own personal ministry to Muslims try reading a few books on Muslim ministry. This will give a deeper understand of the religion and mentality of the Muslim! They are a complicated and fascinating people!”

    It was not my intention to call you on the way you are practicing deception, my post was written for Muslims, it was a plea to get them active in addressing issues that need to be addressed. It was only when you wrote this post that I had to say something as you claimed that I was disgusted by your message. Let me repost the first paragraphs of my post:

    ““About 10 years ago, the Lord placed a burden on my heart for Muslim women. I was on a short term mission trip to France. Our main goal was to minister to North African Muslims, living in France. It was a life changing experience for me! The Lord used that experience to show me the desperate need that Muslim women have for Christ!”

    I ran accross this post today and I just thought to myself – you know, this is really sad. Why does a woman who has every tool within Islam to fight oppression against her need Christ? I mean it’s not like she’s not going to find verses in the bible which make her property, justify beating her or punish her in the worst possible way for adultery.

    And you know, it isn’t even this misconception, this willfull ommission of pertinent information in this regard that blew my mind away, it was this:”… and we know that the rest of it concentrated on how you encouraged people to go to the mosque to spread your message NOTE – I did not make any mention on my own blog in regards to being decietful or encouraging it. The rest of the post goes as a call to Muslims to wake up and start addressing issues.

    As a Muslim, I believe in One God, all of his prophets (including Jesus), his books (including the Bible), his angels and the day of judgement. I see my religion as a completion to Judaism and Christianity. Not only was I born Muslim but I came to BE Muslim by knowing other scriptures, by reading them and various books. I have attended AWANA, various church functions including mass and other church services. Jesus IS in my heart as is Muhammed. Feminism IS a part of me and a part of me that comes through my religion. You speak of Jesus and the Bible valueing women and I give you – “Heaven lies beneath the feet of the mother” and .. when the Prophet Muhammed was asked – “what person, after you prophet, deserves to be honored most? the answer was “your mother” the next question was and who after that? again the answer was “your mother” and once again the question and who after that? and once again the answer was “your mother” and once again the question and who after that? and only upon the fourth question was the answer “your father” given. Then we get into my inheritance rights, then we get into my marriage contract rights, my right to refuse or accept a marriage proposal, my right to own property, my right to divorce, my protection from false witness (in cases of being acused of adultery or fornication, in the case of a jealous husband suspecting infidelity), on top of that we have multitudes of examples of women in positions of authority even in leading an army. Then we have our beloved Aisha who is most often referenced as the most knowledged in hadiths and her rulings in matters highly regarded. Then we have examples of women asking for rights and attaining them through revalations given to the prophet Muhammed. We Muslim women have a vast wealth of sources from the Quran (which states men and women as equals) to the sunnah to the examples of the prophets companions which give us equality and freedom.

    That is what my statement symbolized to any Muslim woman or man out there that read that post. It was not meant to belittle Jesus in anyway – doing such is blasphemous in my religion, it is a statement that basically gives you from a Muslim feminist point of view my asking “why should we go backward when we can go forward” and I’m sorry if this offends you, it’s not directed at you. I do want you to know that even amongst the more conservative Muslims their is an acceptance of the equality of women which goes along the same lines as what you are trying to tell me, sure we’re equal but we differ and still even along those lines within the Quran and Sunnah you will find much greater rights and respect given to women than what you are pointing out of the Bible.

    Upon some thought, both you and Bobby, have me pondering a little more in regards to my that point of view in regards to “why should we go backward when we can go forward” and that is that maybe we Muslims need to go a little back and look at the freedoms that the Bible gave women, compare them to the freedoms that the Quran gave women and through that we can see that in both cases both books gave women unprecedented rights for their time. It’s often a Muslim feminist perspective that the rights women were given at the time of revelation of the Quran were not to end with the end of the revelations, instead we have the basis through fiqh (Islamic law) to gain greater rights until men view women as equals and the core equality message of the Quran can be achieved. In this regard it seems as though it may be necessary to go back and see that God gave us through revelations of his books (Bible and Quran) more and more rights all the while stating that we are equals with men .. this actually gives a basis for our rights not remaining stagnant with the times of revelation as each revelation while unprecedented for it’s time still tried to ease the path for men to accept this equallity and for those particular times certain items were just (like inheritence) which aren’t today.

    Now, to address your question about whether I am interested in seeing others become Muslim. I’m interested in assisting anyone who wishes to learn more about Islam – I will point to the right direction in reading, answer questions, refer people to those more knowledgable than me – when someone comes to me. However, I think that where we differ is that I am not “seeking” to expand my religion through spreading the message. I think for you it is different because you have the view that anyone who doesn’t accept Christ as God is doomed to hell but for my religion – just because I am a Muslim and I do all the pillars of my faith such as believe in one god, pray five times a day, pay charity, fast and do the hajj I could still sin enough to go to hell and you could still be Christian and have been a good person, not done any of the required acts of Islam (as long as it was through ignorance and not through knowing Islam was the truth and then denying it) and you could still go to heaven. I am still accountable for my actions. Instead, I’ve pointed out to you how you have erred, ethically, in hopes that you will have learned something from that, gained some knowledge in hopes that your error was out of ignorance and you can come to understand it.

    I’ve seen some acts of missionaries that I’ve thought were awful, that took advantage of needy people to promote their work through preaching before aiding – there is something that to the core is wrong with that. I’ve also read and seen some very beautiful work on the parts of missionaries, whose hearts are set in setting an example to draw others to want to know more about this religion that has brought aide without condition. I would imagine that if you are going to be spreading your message that you will attempt to understand what I am saying here to you and not take offense to it. Instead of looking at what I have stated in my post and here in comment as an attack against you .. look into your heart and ask yourself if you are doing the right thing. I’m sure your intentions are good and I can understand your concern for all of humanity considering that everyone who doesn’t take Jesus into their heart the same way as you do is damned but just ask yourself if you are setting the right example by what you are doing and what you are asking others to do, ask yourself “what would Jesus do?”.

    Angela Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 6:50 pm
    Samah, is there some sort of law against non-Muslim’s visiting Mosques? Obvioiusly, you are very hung up on this! As I stated, I have never been deceptive about my reasons for visiting Mosques…if the leaders didn’t want me there, they could have asked me not to come! Sorry, but everytime I have visited a Mosque, I have been warmly welcomed. I guess you would not welcome me! When new people come to my church I welcome them, don’t you do the same? For me it does not matter WHY they are there, just that they are there and they are a guest and it’s it right and polite to welcome new visitors? There is nothing ethical about visiting a Mosque. My reason was not to witness (as that would not be the best venue) but to sincerely learn more about Islam and the Muslim culture. If you cannot accept that, then I am sorry. You have many false assumptions about me and about Christianity. I encourage you to do some honest study of the Bible before attacking my faith and me on my blog. I sense that you are antagonistic toward Christians and I am sorry for that. I know that there are Christians and Christian missionaries out there who do not represent Jesus Christ in the way that HE would have them. Let me assure you that Christ came to give LIFE and LIFE EVERLASTING. He truly loves you. He asks nothing of you expect that you believe in him and that he died for you! As a believer in Christ, you are not required to DO anything! (no praying 5 times a day, no fasting, no giving alms) and you do not even have to be a “good person”…as there is no one who is truly good save Christ himself! You seem to like to point fingers, but don’t truly engage in anything that my husband or Glen said about the Trinity, OT, NT etc. What do you think about those points? Also, please do not call me ignorant as that is a faulty argument, meant to “put me down’ instead of addressing the real issues!

    Sincerely praying for your salvation,

    angela

    samaha Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 6:52 pm
    Glen,

    We have a practice called fiqh which is Islamic jurisprudence, it involves interpreting not only the texts which is Quran and Hadith but it requires taking into account society at large. For example, while at the time of the prophet there may have been a shortage of males due to the small community and the various wars that they had been put through, the various persecutions that were going on at the time this practice may have been practical but now let’s take a look at a situation in which females are not outnumbering males at large proportions.

    Additionally, many Muslims believe that the rules for having more than one wife make it impossible to take another wife .. ie. he must love them all equally, he must be able to economically afford more than one wife (separate living quarters) – taking into consideration that polygamy was practiced in the region before the revelation this is viewed by many to be the manner in which it was to bring the practice to an end. Another catch 22 in the situation is the marriage contract where a woman may state that her husband may not take on any additional wives. Now, take into account that for the duration of the prophet Muhammed’s marriage to Khadija the prophet did not take any other wives. It was only after her death that the prophet Muhammed took on more wives and he took more than four wives so this is viewed as a prophetic privelage.

    As to your point number 2 – in the trinity, you have the father, the son and the holy spirit and therefore you have he, he and it. You have no mother, no she in this whole equation. The mere fact that god chose his offspring to be male is problematic in a theological sense not to mention from a religious feminist perspective, at least from the Muslim feminist perspective. It not only would cause me to question how valued women are but to question the power of God and his will.

    It takes me back to original sin (which doesn’t exist in Islam) and if God’s offspring was going to die for our sins then it would only make sense that the offspring be female. It no longer makes sense for all of God’s prophets to be male because at the time the human male enjoyed greater privlages because as a walking divinity the human factor is removed.

    samaha Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 7:14 pm
    Angela,

    There is no law against you visiting a mosque. My comments to you are for you to take a deep look into your heart and ask youself if your encouraging your readers to go to a mosque to minister without informing the Muslims at the mosque that this is their intention, prompting them to say that they are curious about Islam, is ethical.

    Did it ever occur to you to state directly to those at the mosque that this is your intention? Did I say that I wouldn’t welcome you into the mosque? I’ve been thinking about inviting you out to a mosque so that you and I could both speak to the congregation about these issues – so that we could both learn from each other and build bridges like the other commentor mentioned, you know the other one that you said was “disgusted and baffled by the Gospel message”.

    I’m not here to debate religion with you and your husband and Glen. I asked some questions to which I did not recieve answers that I thought were acceptable. You yourself pointed out that we were equals but different – a clear sign to me that this discussion will get nowhere – usually this argument does not refer to our body parts.

    As for your husband – he asked no questions and I addressed that both you and your husband had me pondering – I acknowledged his contribution to this discussion. I am not the one on here begging you or anyone else to “drop” their beliefs. I am merely pointing out the error in the way you choose to encourage others to minister.

    I answered Glen as you wrote out your comment and not to debate religion but to let Glen know that these arguments have no bearing on my feminist perspective and how I would find the second argument a hard pill to swallow. You can either choose to learn something about the Muslim mind from that or not, that’s really up to you.

    Just because one may do something out of ignorance it does not make that person completely ignorant. We all do things out of ignorance – it’s human nature.

    Bobby Grow Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 7:21 pm
    Shama said:

    As to your point number 2 – in the trinity, you have the father, the son and the holy spirit and therefore you have he, he and it. You have no mother, no she in this whole equation. The mere fact that god chose his offspring to be male is problematic in a theological sense not to mention from a religious feminist perspective, at least from the Muslim feminist perspective. It not only would cause me to question how valued women are but to question the power of God and his will.

    What are you talking about? If you are going talk about the trinity then you need to represent it accurately, the way “Christians” understand it . . . which Glen highlighted very well. Christians are monotheists who are trinitarian (just use a little logic and you will quickly realize there is no logical fallacy here,i.e. one who and three whats to state crudely and categorically); you, a Muslim are monotheist but UNITARIAN. As Glen noted, Unitarian Monotheism does not allow for anything but subordinationism, since there is nothing but naked “otherness” between God and His creation; which has implications for the man/woman relationship by way of analogy.

    Just to clarify, for Christians, God does not have “offspring”. When the language of “Son of God” is used, it is referring to the “kind” of relationship that the Father and Son share via the PERSON of the Holy Spirit’s constitutive work proceeding from the Father and Son. Son in the Jewish usage, which is the cultural backdrop for scripture, denotes EQUALITY with the Father, not subordination as Islam would presuppose, given your unitarian monotheism. I.e. the Son and the Spirit both persons, are co-eternal with the Father–and their intra-relationship is what constitutes the very life of God.

    Anyway, Shama, you need to be careful, if you are going to talk to Christians, to represent their belief about God correctly . . . if not, you come off as simply disengenous, and very “uncritical”. In other words, don’t buy into Muslim propaganda about Christianity. Thus far, everything you have said is informed by propaganda, the same kind I have been exposed to by my many visits to Mosques–and the subsequent interaction I have had with Muslim apologists.

    shalom

    Angela Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 7:37 pm
    Samah, One last time, I did not specifically go to any mosque to do ministry or covert anyone, I’ve said that a few times now, can you appreciate that? I always was there as an observer. If you still cannot believe me, then, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. One last thing, I respect the Islamic religion and it’s people. I love the culture, the people, the food🙂, etc…I hope you can see that I am only acting on my strong belief the Jesus is the only way to experience true salvation.

    I Corinthians 2:1-2 puts it very clearly…”When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony of God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”

    I am closing the comments on this thread, as I think we have addressed all your points thoroughly.

    thanks.

    angela

    Angela Says:

    March 12, 2008 at 10:22 pm
    Here’s a few comments from AMG…

    I don’t know if any comment I have will add anything at all. Bobby, Angela and I both love having inhouse scholars to help us out. Yes, Angela and I have studied our OT and NT more than most, but it is a bit rusty at times. Your clarity was great, as well as Glen’s.

    I would like to add this. I read a good handful of blogs daily. I usually disagree with a lot of them. I don’t go onto other’s blogs and start arguments and offend the person who authors the blog. If I comment, it is gentle, with the attitude being one of “I am in some one else’s place right now.”

    I don’t sense that from Samah, and I am SURE she will comment on this. I feel like she pushed right into this blog. Angrily. Filling in the blanks with misunderstandings, etc. Would we walk into someone’s home and do this? No. I think you are wise to “close the door” to her being welcome here. I also read her response on her blog, and she has the right (free speech is great) to have her say there. But she is unwilling to listen and back up facts.

    It is sad that it has come to this. Closing the string down. I also think it’s quite indicative of the Muslim faith. A few years ago, a Muslim came onto our Christian campus to represent his faith. It was a discussion forum, not debate. By the end of the afternoon, he had made it a debate. He also “shamed” us all who were there, which is not a nice thing to do in the Muslim faith. I was shocked at his gall to stand up on our campus, start such an inflaming debate, shame us, and then leave. Not very kind at all, and I am sure he wouldn’t have liked it if we went to his place of worship or his home and did the same thing.

    He also made it clear that he was uncomfortable that women were there. They shouldn’t be there, he said. Really? Samah says she would disagree, I disagree that her faith gives her such freedom. Had she been at this discussion/debate, as a Muslim, she would have been required to leave I do believe, especially if a Muslim man told her to.

    It is sad that my experience with Muslims tends to be like this. Argumentative, shaming, not listening, no discussion. The Muslim’s way or no way.

    Can I also point out modern day Muslim faith practices I see? This is not me bringing up history, the Bible. etc. Obviously that hasn’t made an impact on this discussion. How about three months ago, Muslim woman in the middle East is sentenced to die because she was raped? Why? Because she was defiled by someone not her husband. That is one that comes to my mind right away. Of course, the modern world is shocked, and wonders what happened to women’s rights, but that’s right. This is the middle east that still practices these things.

    That would never happen in a society with Christian values, which America is not by the way. Why? Because Jesus and Christianity made it very clear that each one of us is responsible for our own sin. Not responsible to follow rules, which clearly the above example shows. She was forced to break a rule and must pay with her life? In Christianity, the woman would not have sin, but the men would for defiling the woman and dishonoring the husband. That is from the OT, by the way. But even under Jesus’s new covenant, the issue is the man’s sin of raping her, not her sin—which is just preposterous. It angers me when I hear stories like this, and read posts from Samah, who say she doesn’t feel oppressed and that Muslims give great liberties to women. Samah, I am not seeing it—at all. The burden is not on Angela to defend the OT that none of us are under anymore. The burden is upon you to defend why the Muslim faith continues to this day to harm, kill, defile, deface women who are without sin.

    In Christianity, that sacrifice needed to atone for sin is taken care of. Jesus. We worship Him and love Him dearly because we know we are all deserving of severe punishment. We haven’t followed the rules the Lord God Yahweh has written on our hearts (Romans 1). Jesus has taken that punishment for us–and that my friends, is one of the basic differences in Christianity and Muslim. Rules—no rules, they have been taken care of.

    Our rules have been followed for us, including all the archaic ones we read in the OT. The ones that seem so cruel, all of them, not just the ones that show such a disparity in gender lines.

    I see that Muslims still must follow rules and have no Saviour to atone for them. That seems incredibly cruel still to me and we continue to see modern day examples of it in the news.

    Thanks AMG! You put this very well! I would have to agree that some of my interaction with Muslims has been argumentative, but not all. I have had some great relationships with Muslim women. When not around their men, they are fun, personable and crave female interaction/friendships etc. But, one thing is for sure, I have found that most Muslim “apologetics” is circular, illogical and confusing! Illustrated by Samaha herself.

    Comments are once again closed/moderated by me.

    ——————————————————————————–

  3. Sam permalink
    March 13, 2008 6:43 am

    “..as long as it was through ignorance and not through knowing Islam was the truth and then denying it) and you could still go to heaven”

    Interesting point Samaha…
    Add that to the fact that we all can’t possibly know or reasonably state that “Islam is the truth”.

    (You once admitted to the fact that stating that ‘Islam is the truth’ is a falsity.)

    =>Its fine to deny it since we are agnostic to Islam’s veracity.

    =>And we have, by your own admission earlier and logic here, a conclusion that all that is required to go to heaven is to be a “good” person.

    Phew.. Beating an old horse.. Why should anyone be a Muslim again?

  4. March 13, 2008 12:19 pm

    Sam – you’re pushing it and so I have to clear this up:

    Sam: “by technical definition you and I can’t either prove or disprove a God. Period. Technically we are all agnostic and I would welcome proof either way from someone says we aren’t (of course I doubt that it will ever come). Our beliefs, however, are what set us into the bin of the atheist or the theist. So technically, I am an agnostic atheist and you (I hope you don’t argue about this) are an agnostic Muslim.”

    Me: “Agreed – however, I did say devil’s advocate. So not everyone will agree with you and then we’ll get into why teach ANY theories that aren’t proven like the big bang theory, darwin, etc (and no I’m not saying that religion and science need to be looked at in the same manner) but push one way and your likely to get a push in another direction as we’re allready seen with intelligent design (god forbid that happen). I’ll address child indoctrination again later in more detail.”

    This point doesn’t really matter cuz she could just bash both our brains with a bat, cause us major brain damage, make a confession and off she goes to heaven. Not that an atheist would have anything to worry about under those conditions, not with the big bad islam around, aye Sam?

  5. March 13, 2008 11:43 pm

    You asked how to end a discussion. Simply stop talking. Move on.

    How ever if you are wanting to reach someone you want to first try to understand before being understood.

    I read your posts and followed the links. I see your point and agree with you that when it comes to personal freedom and respect moving from Islam to Christianity is a lateral move.

    However, I feel that your mistake was trying to discuss the topic with someone who has so much of her own personal value wrapped up in converting people to her faith. She is not open to what you have to say because for some reason she needs the reassurance those conversions bring.

    I have found that the only way people convert to a different way of thinking is by personal experience.

  6. March 13, 2008 11:53 pm

    “by lateral move” I mean both systems are patriarticle and have their good points along with their bad. To suppose that Christianity is the only path to happiness is narrow and wrong.

    I forgot to add – I believe it is rude for a person to try to convert anyone to their faith. I think if a person is seeking a change and comes to you, sharing is fine… But what that woman is doing is deceptive.

    Her behaviour betrays the fact that she does not understand her own religion. Christians teach that Satan is the father of ALL lies.

  7. March 14, 2008 3:36 am

    Kita Kazoo, thank you for your comments. You’re absolutely right it is important to try to understand first before being understood. I came to that understanding a bit later in the discussion.

    “You asked how to end a discussion. Simply stop talking.”

    You’re absolutely right but for some reason I kept thinking that this might just be a misunderstanding. That if I was in the wrong – I wanted to set the record straight on my own blog as I had recently done with another website (not exactly the same circumstances but I did realize that I may have given the wrong impression and posted a clarification).

    So now I’m dealing with deception, censorship and guess what – yes, she edited the comments before I cut and pasted them to my thread and so at least now I know that I have exhausted myself in trying to figure this whole mess out and she wasn’t worth my time and effort.

    I’d also like to say that her behavior does not influence the way I view Christians. I realize that this is an extreme case. Also, as I have stated in a comment to Angela, I’ve seen some beautiful examples of Christian missionaries. I’ll add here that I have an admiration for the work that they are willing to put into areas where people are less fortunate. To do some of the things that they do, devoting their lives and asking for nothing in return (not even conversion) just for doing what they see as God’s work – there’s really something to be said about that.

  8. March 14, 2008 5:50 am

    I really feel for you. I’ve had it happen to me.

    I have been enjoying your blog and I am sure there are many more who do but do not comment. It’s hard to feel so misunderstood, please don’t stop sharing.

  9. March 14, 2008 4:25 pm

    Thank you Kita! It’s great to know that you enjoy the blog. I do get emails and comments of encouragement and have noticed that I have many reader referalls and the stats are pretty good – the combination is what keeps the blog going. I don’t expect everyone to comment especially since blogging is a two way street and I barely have enough time to write posts to my own blog and have for the most part given up on commenting at other blogs although I do still read other blogs when I have a chance but I just don’t have the time to comment and keep track of the discussions like I once did.

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